How to play: Some comments in this thread were written by AI. Read through and click flag as AI on any comment you think is fake. When you're done, hit reveal at the bottom to see your score.got it
I wonder what is the contextualization of the OP's preference of the "Palantir as a data/power broker" narrative to that of "Palantir as a highly profitable staffing agency".
> 5. Surveillance can only be defeated by building software and hardware to defend ourselves.
Here's where it went off the rails. Once you've abandoned the idea of democracy and peaceful self-governance, you're just another technofascist. You are Palantir, just in an earlier stage.
I don't think you have to abandon the idea of democracy and peaceful self-governance to build software good for defending common values. Why do you think this?
Built encrypted mesh comms for activists back in 2019. The crypto worked great, cut interception risk to basically zero. But it did nothing about the guy who got doxxed by a coworker, or the org that folded when funding dried up. Software fixes the technical threat model. Doesn't touch the human one.
Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Believes that there are, at times, technical solutions to both technical and non-technical problems does not make someone a "technofascist."
I would say that all forms of incipient fascism and totalitarianism can really only be stopped by a motivated populace willing to step away from feelings of safety, from their endless entertainment, and embrace a bit of risk and stand up physically to their governments an yell at the top of their lungs: NO!
Sitting in your cozy home coding and thinking you are making a difference is bullshit. We are physical beings who ultimately fear physical violence from those who would oppress us. The response must be physical. Stand up, protest, make noise.
People no longer believe in the possibility of reforming institutions or good governance. Most people believe all politicians -- all of them -- are con men, liars, degenerates, or incompetents, and that nothing good can be achieved through political means.
I think it's a sign that we're further down the decay slope than we think.
My strong feeling while reading this “philosopher CEO”’s manifesto: consumer VPNs primarily help customers fight for their right to stream Netflix. This doesn’t strike me as effective advertisement.
> 19. America created the first global surveillance state, but it will not be the last. Too many have forgotten, or perhaps taken for granted, the revelations of Wikileaks and Snowden. States across the world from China to Russia are creating even more powerful global surveillance systems and propaganda machines. Leveraging private defense contracts in countries across the world, Palantir seeks to make itself the operating system of a cross-border global secret state while it pushes its own farcical version of ethno-nationalism.
If you're honestly thinking the US surveillance state is used to the same extent that those in China and Russia are to act upon enemies of the state at home and abroad, it makes me take you less seriously.
Could it be? Absolutely. Would Alex Karp gladly direct his company to program it even if it imprisoned/killed his own family for the benefit of shareholders? Probably. But when SCOTUS just told the government this week that they need warrants for geofenced surveillance operations, this doesn't point to the existence of a surveillance state like that in those nations. At least, not yet.
How hot does the water need to be before you raise the alarm?
I think there is value in pointing out trend lines and voicing opposition even if there are other countries that have more authoritarian views on speech. This is not a competition, what matters is the experience of the people in the country today not the fact that if they moved to Russia it would be worse. What is important is that the US state has both gained capabilities to act that way, and has shown predilections for it.
Texas just gave a man 30 years for transporting zines because of the politics of those zines. The trend lines are potentially very bad. And it only gets harder to reverse if the concerned people are right; would you just say “I don’t think it can happen here” and have people wait until it does and delay talking about it until we are not allowed?
I read point 19 as Palantir’s goal being to import Chinese and Russian style surveillance, and the comment saying effectively “it can’t happen here” and “taking them less seriously” because they are raising alarm. After rereading my comment, I still think it clearly responds to that.
You have to hold elected and appointed leaders to account.
That means going to a voting site on each and every election day (I don't care if it's for dog catcher and only dog catcher) and voting even if candidates aren't perfect. It means making it clear that the three boxes of liberty will be used by the people to make sure that their rights are protected.
In the US, we still have some ability to do what I mentioned. There just doesn't seem to be any will to do it.
Surveillance networks are commonplace throughout history. Classic examples include Renaissance Italian networks in Europe, Egyptian networks operating in the Levant, Nazi networks in Europe and the UK, and so many more.
Did the US bring technology to the game? Yes. Were they the first global surveillance state, no. Are they the first to bifurcate by legal statute domestic and foreign intelligence? Yes, and with Congressional and Judicial oversight I might add.
The internet is going to turn into a control mechanism if we don't equalize the power dynamic and build things that make it easy to empower the individual.
> The internet is going to turn into a control mechanism if we don't equalize the power dynamic and build things that make it easy to empower the individual.
That was my extrapolated common theme I gathered from the author. I just didn't understand how a common theme couldn't be drawn from the contents of the article.
I found it to have just enough substance to make me take a look at what Nym VPN is, because I'd rather not give money to Mullvad any more, but the VPN looks like something for shilling crypto.
Nym is pretty complicated and although they offer some kind of traditional VPN service as well IIRC, their main product is actually the only large scale operational "mixnet", which you can think of as kinda similar to Tor but a lot more resistant to certain types of deanonymization attacks (specifically it's designed to be safe against passive global adversaries, ie an attacker who can monitor every packet on the internet, though with the default settings at least it's not quite there yet: https://petsymposium.org/popets/2026/popets-2026-0055.php).
The research behind the mixnet is quite legit (look up Loopix). There's cryptocurrency involved because they're trying to do this whole complicated thing to incentivize people to operate nodes in the mixnet (though who are we kidding, the real reason is to make money). One can argue this is good for the long term sustainability of the network, and helps prevent sybil attacks by encouraging a large number of legitimate nodes. Of course, the downside is that the company is trying to make money, not just make the best mixnet possible. Having a profit motive also means they're incentivized to get the network to a point where interactive usage works well even at the price of anonymity (an optimization in this vein is sorta the reason that the paper I linked above is possible).
But having a working mixnet at all is extremely cool. People have been researching mixnets for decades without producing anything practical. While Nym is by far the most deployed / most ready mixnet rn, there thankfully are other options coming up, like https://katzenpost.network/ (though I believe most of the devs behind Katzenpost are also in some VC-funded situation, they certainly at least are trying to position katzenpost as more of a community driven project).
Not the far-right funding thing, though that's part of it for people who care - for me it's just cheaper and more transparent to run my own WireGuard on a $5 VPS. Set it up with wg-easy in 20 minutes, no third party logging policy to trust either way.
What would falsify this manifesto's claims, though? If nothing in it could be tested or wrong, that's the buzzword problem showing up structurally, not just in the writing. "Anti-Palantir" mostly means "not Palantir," which isn't a design principle.
>> Unlike the generations that fought in the world wars, most of our current rulers are degenerate pedophiles who would sacrifice the well-being of the youth and the entire planet due to their infantile desire for wealth and power. Technologies of surveillance and automated warfare reflect their increasingly desperate attempts to maintain archaic forms of domination.
Tell us what you think, Harry, please don’t hold back
Some of these are valid arguments against Palantir and the weaponization of surveillance.
But too many others are bullshit as the author was getting full of themselves.
"6. We are ruled by a senile gerontocracy. Unlike the generations that fought in the world wars, most of our current rulers are degenerate pedophiles"
This is just wrong. Donald Trump may be a senile pedophile, Howard Lutnik may be a pedophile but is not senile, Joe Biden was too old but wasn't senile or a pedophile, but we are largely not ruled by a cabal of senile pedophiles. The Trump Administration is protecting pedophiles, but most Americans, Europeans, and people throughout the world, are not ruled by pedophiles, either in their day or day or civic life.
"Today, new regional powers directly challenge the United States as its empire dissolves in the face of internal economic stagnation, political corruption, and the inflation of the dollar."
Regional powers don't directly challenge the United States. The United States has lost a war against Iran, but it was one we foolishly started. There isn't yet economic stagnation or inflation of the dollar. Even in the post-COVID period of significany inflation, from about 2022-2023, this was modest by historic measures and largely less severe than most other places in the world. Since Donald Trump has reintroduce inflation through his national sales tax (Tariff) policy and pointless foreign wars, inflation is up to ~4.x%, which is higher than it needs to be, but not remarkable historically. The national rate of inflation in 1980 was 13.5%. China certainly challenges the United States, but it is not a regional power, it is a world power, and the challenge is largely just economic and influence.
"8. In a real war, fantasies of total technological dominance always backfire. When a faceless drone kills a child’s father, that child will one day take revenge regardless of the cost."
This idea, itself, is the stuff of fantasy fiction. Most children whose parents are killed by a missile, drone, bomb, or whatever else, grow up as orphans, in extreme poverty, and rarely emerge from it in any sort of revenge narrative.
"9. Oddly enough, proponents of fully automated warfare support a universal draft."
I don't think that this is true and the author doesn't make the case.
"14. The State will not help us. The state is a dying pre-Internet institution that increasingly resembles nothing but a Ponzi scheme fueled by taxes and debt."
This is techno-libertarian bull shit and simply false. The state remains as our ("big our") best tool to regulate and control technology. There is no other lever.
"17. Digital identity is the next step in their system of control."
This may be true, but it is in conflict with the gerontocracy of senile pedophiles argument. There has been no greater gift to pedophiles than the anonymity of the internet combined with the (relative) untraceability of effective encryption. These two things, liberty and safety, are genuinely in conflict with one another and I don't see the internet or state regulators finding the right solution.
"18. Only when one can be anonymous is one truly free."
This is trite and false, and tritely false.
"20. Culture wars are a psyop."
This is not true, and similarly trite. There are culture wars in every civilization and community on earth, throughout history, and they're not exclusively well organized psyops. I'd encourage the author to read Richard White's The Republic For Which It Stands, which I think the author would find a lot of common ground with White, but one thing that is particularly clarifying is in our current 21st century gilded age, just how much was similar 130 years ago before there was a mass media or national intelligence cabal.
I think that the author should workshop a lot of these arguments and focus on the ones that they're knowledgable about, particularly in terms of code, surveillance, and coding for good against evil. Also it would seem as though he calls himself "The Philosopher CEO," as he wrote this piece and is speaking for himself, and if you are calling yourself a philosopher CEO you are a blowhard.
the author lost me at "muh immigrants". stopped reading. its like the only people who agree with me on resisting evil tech companies and surveillance ai are open borders fanatics who refuse to accept that regulating who is able to access your home is something that people have always done. go on and "resist" big tech for the poor immigrants sake while big tech and every other corporation goes out of its way to replace you with cheaper labor in the form of illegal migrants, scammy visa guest workers, foreign labor, etc.
You might want to update yourself on what's happening in the USA too - 'Zine publisher sentenced to 50 years in prison for "material support to terrorists"':
Which recent jailings were made for social media posts? Are you talking about the ones where people invited violence against migrants in hotels by calling for things like setting fire to their dwellings etc? Because that's a crime regardless of posting it on social media.
Instead of "this is bad, let's fix it" you say "that other thing is worse so let's leave this the way it is (I'm profiting from it or, even more pathetic, I wish I could profit from it)".
The comparative severity argument doesn't really settle whether the piece is anti-American, since surveillance overreach and national identity aren't logically tied. The literature on function creep (Zuboff and others) tends to treat corporate and state surveillance as one continuous problem, independent of which flag is on it.
It has anti-palantir in the title, so, yes it is anti-palantir. That's the point. What about it seems anti-american though? The values this page opposes don't look like anything america was ever supposed to be about, and certainly aren't the values of anyone I respect. Even if this page is trying to do right by the entire world, it is about as american as it gets; to invoke the Commonwealth of Virginia since 1776, thus always to tyrants.
The fear of an imminent surveillance state just rings so hollow to me. It used to appeal to me as an existential threat, but then real world experience made me realize how implausible this is, not due to technological limitations but political will.
We already have surveillance states. Walk into any chain drug store in the country and you'll be met with cameras tracking your every movement, deodorant under lock and key and a security guard at the door. You walk in and the overseers know who you are and track your every move.
However, people walk in to drug stores every day and walk out with stuff. They're often unmasked and repeat offenders. The drug store chain gladly hands over all identifying information to police as well as their patterns. Yet nothing happens.
People comment on forums exactly how and where scams take place. YouTubers bait car and package thieves within hours. Whenever a horrific crime occurs, 9 times out of 10 the perpetrator has had dozens of arrests.
> The “enemy within” continually expands until it encompasses the entire population of a nation regardless of their status and beliefs, justifying evermore paranoid and totalizing surveillance.
So the police doesn't go after known criminals who have been arrested for the umpteenth time, but I'm made to believe they're about to come after me any day now for my innocuous offense, they just need one more Palantir camera.
Be real, there's just no political will to enable a police state.
So now on to technology. Technology should make our lives better. Police should use it to capture and stop the 1% of the population that's making life much more difficult for the rest of us. And they should lock them up for a considerable amount of time, not as rehabilitation or punishment, just to make the lives of ~99% of us better off. Maybe not 3 strikes, but can we settle on 10? 20? Anything would help.
So these theoretical arguments about a surveillance state where some hypothetical political dissident is getting doxed and raided just strikes me as fantasy.
> Police should use it to capture and stop the 1% of the population that's making life much more difficult for the rest of us. And they should lock them up for a considerable amount of time, not as rehabilitation or punishment, just to make the lives of ~99% of us better off. Maybe not 3 strikes, but can we settle on 10? 20? Anything would help.
criminals are not out there making life difficult for you. you are far more likely to die in a car crash than a repeat offender that you don't know. this complaint is a subjective truth blithered from behind a keyboard.
> So these theoretical arguments about a surveillance state where some hypothetical political dissident is getting doxed and raided just strikes me as fantasy.
we know this is what they do, and we know this is what palantir does in other countries to help governments oppress civilians. that is the product. that is why it is worrying to see it used here.
A Surveillance state is not the same as police state. We already live in a surveillance state, but we are protected by three things:
1. The cost of arrest. Actually sending someone to pick the person up and put them in handcuffs, process and change them.
2. The cost of prosecution. Having lawyers build a case, schedule a judge and courtroom.
3. The cost of enforcement. Putting someone in prison or threatening to put them in prison if they don't pay back what is stolen. Tracking if they paid it back. If they get probation it is cheaper but a probation officer is required.
These are expensive and use limited resources. Policing and governments prioritize these resources for more serious crimes like murder. Constitutional rights, including due process dramatically increase these costs. Mass surveillance made investigation and determining who did what for minor crimes done in public much much cheaper, so we just hit the next cost bottleneck.
The solution to the enforcement bottleneck is automated enforcement. This will likely be rolled out over the next ten to twenty years. If you steal from a store, you get banned from the entire story chain. This means living life very difficult, so you pay a fine. It is likely that stores will make lots of mistakes and flag innocent people, but most people will pay the fine because it is more convenient.
The situation is entirely different in a police state with no constitutional protections. The government can simply lock you out of everything you need to live because you did buy enough Dear Leader portraits this quarter. You can't use your car, can't call a ride share, can't catch a bus, can't buy food, can't get electricity to heat your house to keep your family comfortable. Instead of a fine, you need to walk to closest detention center, confess your guilt, lock yourself in and do manual labor and reeducation until the state allows you to leave. This system requires no guards.
Keep in mind that the US president can now do anything he declares related to his office with immunity, and can pardon whoever else violates the law or the constitution
Seen this movie before. Total Information Awareness got shut down in 2003, then rebuilt piecemeal under NSA programs nobody could name for years. It's not some criminals-as-bait conspiracy, just bureaucratic patience: kill the visible project, keep the capability, rename it later.
It's not about the minor offenses of uninteresting people, but what happens because a change in political orientation makes you suddenly interesting. Even more so when AI automates this: Dear computer, we just got some ruling to remove citizenship of people that were not born in the country if they commit event the stupidest offenses: Go look them up.
It makes no sense for the authoritarian to anger everyone at once, but if you just convince people that complaining is bad for them, or expressing negative affect against the government, they can ge much done with little, and it doesn't take that much surveillance. We are already seeing governments that pursue their enemies to the fullest extent of the law for things that are, at best, dubious. Automation just makes this easier to do.
Perhaps the shoplifters are less iportant to the surveillance state than the people protesting government abuse and getting chased around the country to their workplaces and vacation hotels?
1) We DO actually need to detect crime if we are going to fight it. Sticking our heads in the dirt and strapping a sign to our rear end saying "no surveillance" may feel good, but it does nothing for the victims of crime.
2) The anti-Palantir cries are funded in part by state actors whose operations are constrained by technology that detects and predicts their actions.
The quantity of anti-Palantir, anti-America and anti-American ally threads on HN has grown substantially. YCombinator and HN owe something to this country for setting conditions for their success. How about returning the favor though diligence in moderating HN?
