Pre-Greek: The lost language hidden within Ancient Greek (linguisticdiscovery.com)
196 points by axiologist 13 days ago | 74 comments



TFNA 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

The title is super-clickbaity, as no Indo-Europeanist working today believes in a single Pre-Greek language; this was the idée fixe of the scholar Robert Beekes well over a decade ago now, and very flawed research as Beekes was succumbing to dementia then. In fact, within the field "Pre-Greek!" has become something of an inside joke.

The article does eventually mention the current state-of-the-art, but only after perpetuating the misconception for some paragraphs, and that is poor form for a pop-sci article.


So, the field was making a joke of someone's dementia?
kgeist 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

>Words borrowed from a Pre–Indo-European language into Mediterranean languages

> [...] Greek μύρμηξ mýrmēx ‘ant’, Latin formica

Must be an error:

  Proto-Celtic *morwos
  Proto-Balto-Slavic: *marwis
  Proto-Indo-Iranian: *marwiš
  Proto-Germanic: *mauraz
  Old Armenian: mrǰimn
Greek murmēx could be an assimilation murw- => murm-, and Latin had dissimilation morm- => form- (although not clear what came first, maybe morm- was the original and morw- came later). Sanskrit also has vamra "ant", which makes it look like the whole thing is a tabooistic distortion of *wr̥mis "worm".

In any way, it doesn't look like it must be borrowed. Historically, some words once labeled Pre-Indoeuropean turned out to have pretty mundane PIE origins.

kgeist 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

>wine

It could be an original Proto-Indoeuropean word as well, because Greek has ὑιήν "grapewine" (< *wih₁-ēn), which follows PIE ablaut (weyh₁-ō ~ wih₁-ēn), which doesn't usually happen if it's just a borrowing of a foreign word. And the same root is found in Latin vitis "vine", Russian vit'sa "to twist (often about vines)" etc.

powen 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Every Pre-Greek word is just PIE you haven't found the ablaut for yet.
noncoml 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

> early Greeks, and especially the Mycenaeans (c. 1750–1050 BCE), are associated with major advances in technology (including writing)

I’ve been doing a bit of reading on the Bronze Age Collapse recently. It was such an apocalyptic event that Greeks forgot how to write and read.

Before the collapse, Greeks were using Linear A and Linear B. It took them a few hundred years after the Bronze Age Collapse to learn how to write again, this time borrowing the Phoenician alphabet.

Imagine what an event would look like today that would take us back 200-400 years technologically.

klrefg 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

> would look like today that would take us back 200-400 years technologically.

If those technologies were concentrated amongst the elite and only a handful of palace scribes could write most people would have no or little contact with writing. Same with most people living outside of the palaces (overwhelming majority) and who had no access to the amenities.

It’s hard to say what happened but these collapses sometimes have paradoxical outcomes e.g. we have evidence that the quality of life and health improved for Western Europeans at least in some places after the Roman Empire collapsed (less population pressure, no crippling taxes etc.)

late_edge 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Same pattern with Rome in the west. Peasants dodged the tax collector and often ate better. The people who lost out were scribes and palace administrators, who held the writing tech anyway. Nobody else missed Linear B because nobody else ever used it.
dr_dshiv 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

How long ago before the Myceneneans does there remain a coherent concept of Greek-ness?

“Solon, oh Solon!” — are Greeks truly ancient or relative newcomers in a seafaring land?

kleton 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

> because the Proto-Indo-European language arose in the landlocked steppes, it had no need for—and has no securely reconstructable word for—‘sea’.

No, it is mori, attested in marine, muir, maryadah, mal, morje, etc in farflung IE tongues today.

TFNA 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

There are decades of scholarship on those cognates, and a longstanding view that in Proto-Indo-European the word meant simply "large body of water" and not specifically "sea". Moreover, it may be a substrate word borrowed into European IE languages, as the affinity of that Sanskrit word to this cognate set is not very certain.

Yep, it's the same in Māori, a Polynesian language, where "moana" refers to oceans and large lakes alike.

What's really interesting is that in Hawaiian, a close relative with some sound shifts (k/t, l/r, n/ng, so taboo is kapu in Hawaiian, in Māori, tapu, path is ala / ara, the God of the sea is Kanaloa/Tangaroa) they have more than one word for ocean, kai is coastal waters, moana is the deep ocean.

But it makes sense in the geographical context of both societies and how they evolved to their environment, the Hawaiian archipelago is made up of multiple smaller islands separated by waters exposed to the full force of the Pacific, while the archipelago of New Zealand is dominated by two large landmasses separated by a narrow strait that together are about the same area as Germany.

So the Hawaiians remained more tightly wedded to the sea to build their archipelagan societies than the Māori did.

In fact, the Māori lost the knowledge to build ocean-going vessels like the ones that had carried them to New Zealand within a few hundred years because there was no need for it. And their language lost the distinction between "coastal waters" and "ocean" while Hawaiian retained them.

While we have evidence of Māori traveling to Raoul in the Kermadecs early on, as classical Māori culture evolved on much much larger islands, their technology focus on boats switched from ocean going vessels to coastal travel and river travel.

In fact, while "Wai", water, is often considered the Māori word for "river", there's another word that also means river in Māori:

"Ara" - path.

(Of course, it still means a regular path)

medvidek 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

You can see the same with the word "sea". Its German equivalent See still mainly means "lake", even though in some fixed expressions it can be translated as "sea" (e.g. Nordsee, Ostsee).
Utilera 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

The cognate set is real, but jumping from that to "PIE had a word for the sea" assumes the original meaning was already maritime
kleton 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

It is probably not a substrate word, but more likely coming from "dead" water, as in not a moving river.
schoen 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Wiktionary's note says some people think this root may originally have referred to freshwater/inland seas, not oceans.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...

In many of the daughter languages it does regularly include saltwater connected to the world ocean (certainly the Latin "Mare Nostrum" for the Mediterranean!); it just seems uncertain from this description whether it necessarily had that sense in PIE.

That doesn't seem like "had no ... word for ... 'sea'" is a very clear or helpful description of the situation, though.

pishpash 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

That doesn't mean no word for sea. It means sea refers to any large body of water that you dnn't see the other side of, like in some (all?) other language families. There is no discernible distinction from the perspective of the ancient observer. The Great Lakes look like oceans. Saltiness isn't of great relevance since there are salt lakes, too.

For an analogous but completely unrelated example, Stoney [0] has a word for "ocean" (mînîtâga) [1], but it's also only spoken in a landlocked region. So maybe human languages have a tendency to preserve/invent the word for "ocean" for some reason?

(I actually remember asking the professor why they had a word for "ocean", but he wasn't sure either.)

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoney_language

[1]: https://dictionary.stoneynakoda.org/#/L/m%C3%AEn%C3%AEt%C3%A...

jltsiren 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Finnish language doesn't have an actual word for "ocean". We use "valtameri", which means something like main sea or great sea. And both "valta" and "meri" are Indo-European loans.

But in Livonian (an almost extinct Finnic language spoken in Latvia), Valdamer is one of the names for the Baltic Sea. So maybe that's the origin of the Finnish term as well.

smitty1e 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

> (I actually remember asking the professor why they had a word for "ocean", but he wasn't sure either.)

Most likely a reference to Houses of the Holy.

Utilera 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

I think this is mostly a disagreement over semantics.
el1s7 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

One aspect the article seems to overlook is Albanian. Since Albanian is a unique branch of Indo-European, descending from the Paleo-Balkan linguistic world and developed in the same broader region, it would be interesting to see whether the non-Greek substrate vocabulary found in Ancient Greek has been systematically compared with Proto-Albanian and other reconstructed Paleo-Balkan material.

Plato wrote about a lot of these kinds of words in the dialogue Cratylus. The dialogue is about more than just etymology, of course, but it’s worth looking at if the subject is interesting to you.
keiferski 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

From what I understand, and I might be oversimplifying here; many of the differences between Indo-European languages today are a result of the languages that were there before. So the reason Proto-German and Latin were different is in part because of the pre-IE languages in each of those regions. But we don’t have a ton of information on those languages, so scholars are not sure.

Of course there were other reasons languages changed, and the inheritance is only one factor.

But in some sense there are many lost languages hiding inside contemporary ones.


For a more detailed analysis from an Indo-Europeanist with a Greek background: https://consultingphilologist.wordpress.com/2025/08/13/how-m...
Utilera 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

What I find cool here is how much archaeology you can do without actually digging anything up
samus 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

One still has to do field work to gather all the linguistic data. It's rather easy with settled societies only. Researchers studying indigenous languages had to travel to hard to reach places and often live with the tribes for a quite long time.

It's a lot easier nowadays, but ease of transportation also correlates quite well with a levelling of linguistic distinctions. That's a problem because the comparative method of reconstructing older stages of a language relies on the assumption that different dialects maintain aspects of the older language.

mmooss 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Yes, etymology is amazing. You carry tens of thousands of artifacts in your head.
lars 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

The -nth- and -ss- endings are the fun part. Korinthos, Parnassos, labyrinthos, hyacinth all carry them, and they cluster in place names and plants, which is just what you'd expect from a substrate. Gotcha I hit reading Beekes: "no Indo-European etymology" often gets treated as proof of Pre-Greek, which is circular.
drhagen 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

I get that the article was already super long, but I really wanted to hear how they got all the body-parts words from the Pre-Greeks. That seems like such a random corpus to lift from another language. Pre-Greeks way more into divination?
drhagen 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Or, we have multiple anatomy textbooks [0] from before the Late Bronze Age Collapse.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_textbooks

leoc 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

IIRC there's a common cultural tendency to put a lot of stock in the magical powers of exotic foreign wizards, so divination might not be such a bad explanation at all.
empath75 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Yeah I think to calibrate you should probably look to Native American words that made it into English — place names, local foods and wildlife, cultural items. Those are going to be your substrate borrowings for most languages.
canjobear 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

> such a random corpus

I see what you did there

icodar 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Herodotus states that the Pelasgians spoke a language different from Greek. However, some words from the Pelasgian language may have become incorporated into the Greek language.

See also (hypothetical) Proto-Euphratean, "the lost language hidden within Sumerian": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Euphratean_language

First I read pre-geek.

Did we have Ancient geeks?


Archimedes comes to mind.
dan470 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

As far as I know, "geek" has nothing to do with Greek. It comes from Low German geck, "fool", and the carnival sideshow sense came much later. The pre-Greek words the article lists, like thalassa and labyrinthos, are a better bet for ancient nerd vocabulary, though even those etymologies are debated.
baruz 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Ktesibios and Heron of Alexandria

Anthemios of Tralles, quite the prankster

dark_link 13 days ago | flag as AI [–]

Small nit on the "Mycenaeans and writing" bit: Linear B was adapted from Minoan Linear A, so the script itself was borrowed from a non-Greek culture. IIRC the earliest tablets are closer to 1450 BCE than 1750. Which does fit the substrate theme, I guess.